Characterizing his college self as having been lost without even really knowing it, Michael "Ziggy" Zigmont found himself on Wall Street, taking layoffs, new jobs, and more layoffs in stride. An unexpected stroke at age 38 cleared up almost as fast as it came on, mirroring the experience of being lost and not knowing it. Find out how sometimes being accepting of what is and moving on is the best and only option.
Guest Micheal Zigmont, Dartmouth ’96, characterizes his college self as having been lost without even really knowing it. Graduating without a job was the manifestation of that. After six months living in his parents’ house, temping, he decided to try to land an analyst position on Wall Street, which he did. A quick test of the dot com world to make sure the grass wasn’t greener on the other side showed it wasn’t and he went right back to finance as though nothing happened. As he never burned his bridges on the way out, he found he was able to go back to familiar surroundings frequently.
What wasn’t familiar was the feeling one Saturday morning when his muscles on one side of his body started cramping unexpectedly and he felt extremely drunk. At 38, as a person in good health with zero risk factors, he suffered a sudden and rather inexplicable stroke. And even quicker than a financial boom and bust cycle, the stroke symptoms went away almost as quickly as they had occurred, again almost as though nothing happened.
In this episode, find out from Ziggy how sometimes being accepting of what is and moving on is the best and only option …on ROADS TAKEN...with Leslie Jennings Rowley.
About This Episode's Guest
Michael “Ziggy” Zigmont, has over two decades of Wall Street experience with multiple companies, some even multiple times. He is currently with Harvest Volativity Management, where he is Partner and Head of Trading and Research. At 38, as a person in good health with zero risk factors, he suffered a sudden and rather inexplicable stroke. He wanted to share the details of his story with our listeners so that we all have some point of reference should we or our loved ones experience the same symptoms. For more information on Stroke Symptoms—including the FAST acronym for Face Drooping, Arm Weakness, Speech Difficulty, and Time to Call 911—visit the American Stroke Association.
Executive Producer/Host: Leslie Jennings Rowley
Music: Brian Burrows
Find more episodes at https://roadstakenshow.com
Email the show at RoadsTakenShow@gmail.com
Michael Zigmont: Yeah, the whole thing just was a random life event. And I was accepting of that. Now, maybe some people can't accept randomness, but for me, I was able to, and, and so that's my story. That's my big post college career…the biggest thing is surviving a stroke. I'm a stroke survivor. It's pretty weird to say out loud.
Leslie Jennings Rowley: Characterizing his college self as having been lost without even really knowing it, Michael "Ziggy" Zigmont found himself on Wall Street, taking layoffs, new jobs, and more layoffs in stride. An unexpected stroke at age 38 cleared up almost as fast as it came on, mirroring the experience of being lost and not knowing it. Find out how sometimes being accepting of what is and moving on is the best and only option, on today's Roads Taken with me, Leslie Jennings Rowley.
Today, I'm here with Michael Zigmont. Many of us would have known him as “Ziggy,” endearingly. And we're going to talk about life’s mysteries that remain mysteries and how sometimes it’s okay. So, great to have you here, Zig.
MZ: Thank you so much, Leslie.
LJR: So I start this the same way every time with the same two questions and they are: When we were in college, who were you? And when we were getting ready to leave, who did you think you would become?
MZ: Uh, who was I? When I came to Dartmouth, I didn't know who I was. I think that's a pretty common trait among most of your guests. Most young people. I guess the way to describe it is I was lost, but I didn't know that I was lost. I was just ignorant of that fact that I only recognize that in hindsight, And I was also lazy. I knew I was lazy. I didn't know how lazy I was. And when I graduated college, it wasn't that much different. It's not like I had found myself and it's not like I discovered a work ethic. I had sort of stumbled through college. I loved Dartmouth. I learned some pretty amazing things from the classroom, but also interactions with everyone else. And I have nothing but positive memories of the whole thing. But I didn't form my adult self until later it took work and life experience and all that to sort of figure out who I was, you know, what I liked, what moved me emotionally, all that sort of stuff. And that's fine. That's just the way life is. So the fact that I was lost, but didn't know, it sort of led to me wandering throughout the college experience. There's nothing negative about that, but it's not like I had ambition or, you know, some of your guests, some of our classmates, they knew they wanted to be a doctor. They studied their tails off. They’ve become wonderful doctors and God blessed them with their future career in life. And then some people didn't know what they wanted to do, but they were searching and then they found something and then they blossomed from there. For me, I didn't even know to search. I just was sort of like going through the motions and that's okay. You know, it didn't bother me. And I ended up on wall street and you know, had a pretty, I would say normal Wall Street career, f there is such a thing, you do the analyst program, you become an associate. For me, I got…I quit. Then I got hired. Then I got fired. Then I found another job. Then I got, we hired and fired by the same firm. If you've been on Wall Street, probably you've been fired in my case twice, but maybe, you know, at least once. And that's pretty standard too. And I'm still on wall street. I'm just working for a small firm now. And through all those, like, you know, corporate or I should say, career ups and downs, you figure out what you like and what you're good at and what your talent set is versus where you hand off to someone else.
The big thing that happened to me other than like, you know, getting married and having kids was that I had a stroke. And when we connected, I mentioned that to you. I don't know if you already knew that, but
LJR: I did not. I did not.
MZ: It was very surprising and I was very happy to share that with you because nobody talks about strokes, right? I mean, or if you, do you usually talk about your grandfather or, you know, in our case now our elderly parents having a stroke and it's usually, it's a very emotionally churning experience. And it usually has bad outcomes if, you know, you're dealing with elderly people.
So for me, this was in 2018 and I was in good shape. I was working out regularly and I had no risk factors, which is something that was very puzzling after the fact. It was a Saturday. And my wife had gone out to do some errands and I was watching our kids. You know, my son was one and my daughter was three and I'm having a normal Saturday morning probably drinking a cup of coffee, and I go to pick my son up off the ground. And as soon as I get up—I snap my fingers when I tell the story—it felt like a button was pushed or a switch was flipped. And some people describe it as a buzzing. For me, it was just a very strong, like lightheaded feeling. And half of my face felt like it was cramping. So I don't know if you've ever had a muscle cramp. For me, I used to get them in my calves. And when that muscle cramps up, you can't control it and it's super painful and you just have to ride it out. And it felt like half my face was just cramping. And I thought this is very weird. And I also started to feel drunk, like very inebriated. So I'm thinking to myself, what is going on here?
I'm very confused, but I'm not concerned. I have no emotional, like, variability. I'm calm and I'm confused. I'm just like out of it, I guess you could say right…It was it's…I describe it as being drunk because that's how I felt. And that's probably how other people could maybe imagine what was happening.
But I set my son down and I stumbled over to the couch and I realized that like half of my body is just not responding very well. And I remember trying so hard, like, to pick up a pencil. And sometimes I would drop it and sometimes I could actually pick it up and hold it. And I also felt super-duper sleepy. Like I wanted to just go to sleep on the couch and I thought, what is wrong with me? Why am I being so pathetic, right? I got a decent night's sleep. What's happening. So, I don't know how long I was in this like weird state, but eventually my wife comes home and she sees me trying to like walk to greet her and I'm stumbling and she instantly thought I was drunk. But I'm not a day drinker. I don't have these issues. So she starts to, she tries to talk to me and I'm slurring my speech. Sometimes I understand what she's saying and I can respond, even though it's slurred. And sometimes I'm just like not connecting with her. And so it was very much like talking to a super drunk person. You know, sometimes, you're like, Hey, we got to take you home. And this person is like looking all over the place and they're talking about, they want waffles or something, and they're just like in a different world. And then sometimes you're like, no, no, this is important. Where are your keys? And they'll reach in their pocket and give you the keys. Like sometimes they connect with you and they understand through this like drunken haze. And sometimes they don't. And it was the exact same thing for me during my stroke. I didn't know what was happening. My wife didn't know it was happening and we called the doctor friend of ours and the doctor friend said, take him to the hospital.
So they took me to the hospital and I was about to get a very powerful, like clot busting drug pumped into me and I'll never forget I'm on the I'm on the table, the gurney or whatever nurses about to put the, I think it was called heparin. She's about to inject the heparin into my IV. Now, the thing about this is if you have a stroke, that's based on a clot, then this is excellent, right?
If you can have this drug within I think, three hours of your stress. Your recovery is like super duper awesome. But if you have a burst blood vessel, then this thing makes it worse. So they didn't know. But in most cases it's probably a clot, I guess, from the way they figured out how it happened to me, they figured it was a clot they didn't even give me in
LJR: But most cases of people your age, in good health?
MZ: No, no. Well, maybe that was factored into someone's recommendation at some point, but you know, usually you have a stroke when you have certain, what are called risk factors, you know, you're overweight or you have a heart problem or, you know, Cocaine or some drugs like that. You know, I'm not a doctor, I don't know all those factors, right.There are certain things that can be at work that increase the likelihood of you having a stroke. And those risk factors are usually more important if you're young, if you're old, just being old as a risk factor, but I was 38. Anyway, the point is that they were going to give me this clot Buster. They thought that was a smart thing to do.
And that I think that would have been fine because it turned out that I did have a clot, but just as they're about to inject the medicine. Someone might say someone, it felt like the light switch was flipped the other way. And I go from being like, I'm, I'm making it up. I don't know what I look like, but I go from being out of it and slurring my speech and not really understanding what's going on to sitting up in my bed and saying, I feel much better now.
Holy cow, this is…And the nurse doesn't know what to think. I don't know what the doctors thought either, but the best thinking that they had was that I had some clot and it just happened to like break up at that time. And then, then they do like tons and tons of tests on me. You know, CT scans, I think MRIs.
And they also were checking me for like heart defects. ’Cause sometimes if you have a congenital heart defect, maybe then something with your heart condition, a clot could go through your arteries, into your brain and cause trouble like that. And I had none of those issues, none of those things, but I did have a stroke.
I had brain damage that was visible on the scans and the good news is that I didn't have any short-term or long-term side effects that we know of. You know, maybe my memory is affected a little bit. I don't know. But I certainly was able to converse normally from that point forward and I didn't have balance problems. I didn't have coordination problems. I don't have any paralysis that stuck with me. So it was all very lucky and fortunate. And my wife was scared, like crazy. Once we got to the hospital, she got scared. But for me, Not scared at all. And in fact, I felt a little bit like euphoric and like giddy. And that's why I say it was like being drunk when, you know, when you're in that like high state and things are funny and you're smiling, even though you're acting like a fool or, you know, you're falling down drunk. You just feel good. And I felt good, but at the same time, there's a small part of my brain that understood that this is all weird. Like I said, I thought throughout the whole experience, I didn't know that I was having a stroke. Even when my wife called the doctor and she said to me, you're probably having a stroke. I probably, I think I nodded and said, oh, okay. And then didn't have a care in the world. And we got into the car and she drove to the hospital with the kids and me. That's my whole like stroke experience, you know.
From that point forward for a few years, I was on a blood thinner and now I'm just on baby aspirin, which is great. I haven't had any strokes since which is good and I'm in great health. I still exercise regularly. So I feel good about that. But I wanted to just tell the story as honestly as I could, because I imagine myself as someone who hadn't had a stroke, and if I'd ever crossed paths with a young person who did have, I would want to ask them, well, what did it feel like? What happened? Right? What sensations were it like? You know, these are kind of like the, probably the impolite questions that we all want answers to. And, you know, I hope that no one who hears this ever feels this, right? Ever has a stroke. But if they do, maybe they'll remember something that we said or exchange and they'll be like, oh, maybe I'm having a stroke.
Or maybe, you know, their spouse will recognize it or something. I don't know. It was just very, very random, right? Out of the blue, it happens. And then out of the blue went away. And it was kind of like this very bizarre multi-hour chunk of life, where everything was thrown into chaos. And then everything just sort of went back to normal, you know, with a couple of exceptions.
But I don't know, some people ask if it changed me and I don't think that it did, although my wife thinks that I talk to strangers more readily now, which I find interesting. So she says that, you know, I was always reasonably social, but now with strangers, I'll just strike up conversations and be more social.
So I guess maybe that's a good thing. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what she thinks. So who am I to disagree?
LJR: Yeah. I wonder if it's related or if it's just, that would have happened anyway in your dotage. So this is so interesting to me because I feel like there are correlates to the earlier story you told about being lost and not knowing it. I mean, really big correlates, right? Being lost and not knowing it in that moment for sure. But I also think other people in this situation now, or, you know, in the few months after, and it's only been a couple of years, right, that might say: I don't want that to happen again, even though it was euphoria and it felt great, like it, nobody should be wanting to have a stroke.
And so, you know, a lot of people could be like, you know, I'm going to research all of the 17 million ways that it could have happened and what are risk factors that weren't shown and you know, how can I optimize this or minimize that? And that, that doesn't really seem like what you've done nor who you were in the kind of wandering and well, it's going to be, right?
MZ: I’m never looked at it that way, but it's a very clever view of the whole situation. I think you're accurate in your assessment. Okay. So why did I not dig into all the research? I put my faith in my doctors, you know, I, I had a really good cardiologist at the time. He had all sorts of like historical information about me and my heart. So we knew my heart wasn't an issue, even though we did those tests after…
LJR: Wait. Why did you have a cardiologist at the age of 40? I don't have a cardiologist.
MZ: I had him when I was a 22. He was a Dartmouth grad. I was in New York City and I needed a doctor. And somehow someone referred me to this guy. His name was Dr. Frank Wiser and he was a Dartmouth class of 50 something. I just needed a general doctor. He, it turns out he was like a really renowned cardiologist. So what the heck? He was Dartmouth? I needed a doctor. I didn't care that he had…
LJR: You're on Wall Street. Your heart might give out at any moment? as good as could be…
MZ: I never even thought that I just thought, well, he's a doctor. And these Dartmouth and that's good enough. And, you know, so what if he wants to take my EKG? Like, instead of just taking my like blood pressure and my weight and all that sort of stuff, every, you know, it's 12 months, six months, whenever my physicals were, he would measure my heart rate and he'd take my EKG and record all that stuff. And, you know, I thought, well, that's what he does. So that's fine.
LJR: I'm glad you didn't pick a Dartmouth urologist because that might not have been as fun.
MZ: Right? Anyway. So that was just weird. And it turned out to be very fortunate because we have a long history of my heart health. And so we knew that that wasn't an issue.
And because of this guy was like renowned, he referred me to a really good neurologist. And so the neurologist did the up and down like stuff on me, like crazy. And they all came to the same conclusion that they couldn't identify what the heck happen. And that in some cases strokes happen randomly. In a lot of these cases, when a blood clot just happens, usually there's airplane travel involved, right? If you've ever heard of people being on a plane for awhile, and then they've got their blood pools in certain spots and, you know, a clot sort of shows up. Brain as a result of that, but I hadn't done any traveling any time. So that wasn't an issue. Yeah. The whole thing just was a random life event. And I was accepting of that.
You know, maybe some people can't accept randomness, but for me, I was able to. Because there were no noticeable side effects or lingering effects. Like I said, maybe something did affect me, but I didn't notice it. I didn't feel compelled to sort of dig and learn whatever, but I bet you, if I had some lasting paralysis, then maybe I would have been like more involved and I would have consumed material and I would have tried to figure stuff out and maybe I'd be changing my diet or changing something, but because it happened and then away, essentially. I was able to just let it go and move on. And then, so that's my story. That's my big, that's my big deal by a post college career is the biggest thing is surviving a stroke. I'm a stroke survivor. It's pretty weird to say.
LJR: It’s pretty astounding actually. But so I want to try to go a little bit deeper, kind of that through line, because one question I was going to ask you before you jumped into that story, when you were just talking about your career. You know, you said you were kind of wandering and you wandered into Wall Street and from thing to thing to thing, You know, a theme that I keep thinking about when I talk to our classmates is: there's some people that thought that the first step after graduation was a forever trajectory. And I think some other people think that and get awakened to the fact that that isn't necessarily true for them. And then some people just never thought that at all. 'm feeling as though I think I know which of those avenues you would have said you were.
MZ: I promise not to change my answer. What do you think?
LJR: I think that you had no thought whatsoever that that would be a forever step. It was just the next little step.
MZ: Yeah. That's exactly right. So I graduated college with no job. I was unemployed. And I thought, boy, that's a real waste of a quality education. And I ended up temping at Lucent in New Jersey, which is where I grew up. And I'm temping at Lucent and I'm not too happy that that is like where I am now, right? I'm living at my parents' house. It's the summer of 96 and I'm temping. The temp money was fine, but I was like, geez. I don't want to…if I'm going to tread water, I was thinking let's tread water doing something that I love, not just, you know, exchanging hours for time, right? And I thought, well, maybe I can go back to school.
I had a good time learning about engineering in the Thayer school. And I thought maybe I'd go back to Thayer and take more engineering and just sort of see where that world would take me. But, you know, I didn't have a passion for it. I just thought it's better than temping. And I said, well, you know what, let's try to get onto Wall Street, because that was sort of, I dunno, sexy. I guess I had a couple of friends from high school who went there and you know, obviously a lot of Dartmouth kids did it and I thought that's the beginning of a good career and the money's good and New York City's pretty fun. And so I sent resumes out. I sent cover letters out and I got a couple nibbles and I got a couple of offers and that was that. And in October of 96, was done temping and I joined Morgan Stanley. And then at Morgan Stanley, I was the analyst and I'm doing the analyst thing, which is a conveyor belt, right? You take young college graduates and you put them into some sort of like department of the mothership and you teach them all the grunt work. And then they learn as they go along the conveyor belt, they become skillful at certain things, and then they move up to associate and then they move up to VP. And next thing, you know, 20 years have gone by, and it's a managing director who is a mover and a shaker in that particular like niche of Wall Street.
So there I am. I'm on the conveyor belt. I'm having fun. I didn't realize I was on the conveyor belt. I just thought I was at an entry level position in a pretty sexy industry, and I'm starting to make some money and I cared more about going out and drinking and having fun after work. And that was fine. And so I did that until the Dot Com thing sort of really got hot. And then I had a, the grass is always greener. That's what I thought. And I thought, oh, the dot com world is even sexier than this and I'll go and do something. So I tried to find some dot com jobs. As soon as I started looking at dot com jobs, I realized that that was a disaster. Like, you know, this is absolutely harebrained. It is. I mean, they knew they were harebrained already. I don't know why I had to see it up close and personal and have no job to realize that it was harebrained. And, you know, I stayed in New York City and ended up getting a consultant gig just for six months consulting to some of these dot com startups.
And it was paying the bills, but nothing special. And then Morgan Stanley reached back out to me and said, Hey, we're swamped with work. You know, ’cause it was still 1999. And so all of this wealth was being created and I came from private wealth. That was the department that I was in. So that's just the gathering and the management of it. Lots of money that's controlled by individuals as opposed to the institutional world. So they brought me right back. They made me an associate. I was happy. They were happy. That six months stretch was kind of like a sabbatical. Yeah. I didn't skip a beat. They didn't harbor any grudges. Neither did I. And I just jumped right into my old chair and resumed work as if, as if I had never left. And that was great. And then the dot com bubble burst in ’01 and layoffs started happening. And then 9-11 happened. And so I was caught up in the first round of layoffs after 9-11. I remember it was a Tuesday because the consultants had already, I guess, let the higher ups know that the best time to lay off people is on the Tuesday. I dunno; I think there's a logic there. But I get called to come into the conference room. And so everyone knew that day that if you got a call to go into the conference room, that was it. So as soon as I pick up the phone and they say, come to the conference room, I know what's happening. And how old was I at the time I was 25, 26.
I was 26. So I go into the conference room and there's my managing director. And you could tell that he was stressed out, right? Because he's got to fire all these people today. And I said, Hey, I understand, you know, I'm sorry that this is the way that it has to end. But I love Morgan Stanley and you know, let's just talk about my exit package and that's fine.
And you can see like the sense of relief, just like wash over him. And you know, I had a decent package to sort of usher me out the door. And so I wasn't concerned. And I bounced back and found a job with a small firm, maybe two months later, something like that. So it all worked out great. And then that firm got bought by Credit Suisse. That firm was a derivatives firm. And so that's how I sort of really started to do equity derivatives. And then I'm working inside Credit Suisse, and I didn't like who I was working for. And I reached back out to Morgan Stanley because there was a desk that we had done some work with in the private wealth group called the hedging and monetization desk. But they worked with derivatives, these derivatives for private wealth situations. And so I reached back out to that desk and I sent in a cover letter. I sent in an updated resume. They said, Hey, we'll hire you. No problem. I have no proof of this, but I'm a firm believer that I left my bridge unburnt and I parted ways with the firm in such a way that they were happy to bring me back.
So I went back to work at Morgan Stanley and I started working in equity derivatives at the institutional level and something called structured products. Not that that's important. I was a salesman for a while and learned how to sell, which is a heck of a skill and in early ’08, so before the financial crisis, the whole group was laid off.
So I was fired by Morgan Stanley again, and I said the same thing to this new managing director. I said, I love it here. I'm sorry. This is how it goes. I haven't gotten back to Morgan Stanley yet, but maybe something. So, you know, when it comes to career type stuff, not that I have wisdom to impart on anyone, but I don't know—if you're going to get fired, just thank the boss and leave with a smile because you know, acting like a fool and throwing a tantrum doesn't change the outcome. I quit once, I got fired twice. And the joke that I have with my wife and some friends is I can't wait to go back and fourth or fifth time.
LJR: Yeah. Yeah. And, and yet you're not banking on that. You're not like pining for that. It's what comes. And I think that's your M-O. Like it always has been right. Like, okay, what's the next thing. All right, that was fun. Thanks so much. Thank for what I got. Might see you again.
MZ: You're getting me to review my life in a totally different light. I like it.
LJR: Well, it seems like the light. Who knows? It's at least one, one one perspective on this story. So with all of that, that has transpired both career-wise and medical wise and family wise if you went back to 21, 22 year old Ziggy, what does he not know that you know now that he'd either be astounded by or edified by?
MZ: Oh boy. So I've got some good advice, but 21 year old Ziggy would not have listened.
You know, he would have, he would have understood it, but he would not have embraced—It's not the right word—It would not have sunk in such that he could have used it. He would have just said, oh yeah, okay. And then moved on. But the advice that I would have is that it's a people world. I mean, I understand that things are changing and technology allows for scalability and, you know, programmers can make lots of money only interacting with their computer screens and you can sell product just through Internet ads. But it's still a people world. So you have to become comfortable is not quite enough. You have to enjoy people, even if you're shy, you know, go and interact with people in positive ways. Right? Like try to forget about selfishness and try to meet people and really meet them. You know, now that doesn't mean you memorize all the details about them or their lives, but, you know, appreciate the interaction with someone. Maybe you click and maybe you don't, but give it a legit effort and understand that it is not just meeting someone and it's a trivial event in your life. Right? Like meeting people is a very important and powerful interaction and respect.
If you are a better people person, I think everything, everything else will sort of work its way out. If that makes any sense.
LJR: Did he not know that? I feel like he knew that.
MZ: I was selfish.
LJR: Well, it was fun interacting with him. I will say.
MZ: I mean, like I said, I didn't know. I didn't know what they didn't know.
And I didn't even know that I was looking, I didn't know that I was lost. And when you're lost without a clue, I guess you're going to be fun to be around. So now I miss those days, they didn't have a care in the world. Bouncing around.
LJR: Well, I will say I'm whether you're lost or found, I'm glad we have a chance to reconnect because this has been not only, I think really instructive. It's been fun to kind of revisit you and to see how, in a lot of ways, you haven’t changed.
MZ: Well, great. That's a very nice compliment. Thank you so much.
LJR: That was Michael “Ziggy” Zigmont, who has over two decades of Wall Street experience with multiple companies, some even multiple times. He is currently with Harvest Volativity Management, where he is Partner and Head of Trading and Research. At 38, as a person in good health with zero risk factors, he suffered a sudden and rather inexplicable stroke. He wanted to share the details of his story with our listeners so that we all have some point of reference should we or our loved ones experience the same symptoms. Thank you, Zig, for sharing and we’re so glad you’re in good health now. I wish you all the same and hope you’ll join me, Leslie Jennings Rowley, for more informative and enjoyable episodes of ROADS TAKEN.