Combining interests in art history, English literature, and drama, Aliza Pressman surrounded herself with illustrations of the human condition. After briefly trying to crack the code of what it means to be human on stage, she eventually found another route to answering the same question: Developmental psychology and the translation of academic research on parenting. Find out how taking on a role and being prepared to embody it can be two different things.
Guest Aliza Pressman went to college wanting to develop a side of herself beyond her natural artistic side. Although she did have a range of experiences while there, she ended up combining her interests in art history, English literature, and drama and exploring the human condition throughout it all. Not wanting the experience to end with graduation, she and some friends started a theater company in New York. After a few years, when she saw that other people had deeper drive and talent than she was mustering, she found other ways to make connection, namely working with kids in theater arts. But when someone mentioned a psychology program to her, things changed.
She eventually found another route to answering the question of what makes us who we are: Developmental psychology. Initially drawn to teens and adolescence, she made a turn to infants and ultimately realized that so much of the environment of a child’s development has to do with parenting. She then made it her mission to translate the academic research on parenting and human development to the people who need it the most: Parents.
In this episode, find out from Aliza how taking on a role and having the tools to embody it can be two different things…on today’s Roads Taken with Leslie Jennings Rowley.
About This Episode's Guest
Aliza Pressman, known nationally as Dr. Aliza, is a developmental psychologist with decades’ experience working with families. She received a masters in Risk, Resilience and Prevention from the Department of Human Development at Teacher’s College and her PhD in developmental psychology from Columbia and is an Assistant Clinical Professor in the Division of Behavioral Health Department of Pediatrics at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital. After co-founding SeedlingsGroup and the Mount Sinai Parenting Center (the former with fellow classmate Blair Seidler Hammond) she began the Raising Good Humans Podcast. Featuring other psychologists and national parenting authorities, as well as such notable parents as Drew Barrymore, Jessica Alba, and Jennifer Garner, her podcast conversations sprinkle in the latest academic research on child development and deliver it directly to parents.
Executive Producer/Host: Leslie Jennings Rowley
Music: Brian Burrows
Find more episodes at https://roadstakenshow.com
Email the show at RoadsTakenShow@gmail.com
Aliza Pressman: Tons of the research was talking about parenting during adolescence and the impact, that environmental impact. The only thing we can control is ourselves. And so I want to work with parents because they actually can't control their kids. They can only control themselves. And so that's cool. I thought that was very heartening because then we can let go of all the other stuff.
Leslie Jennings Rowley: Combining interests in art history, English literature, and drama, Aliza Pressman surrounded herself with illustrations of the human condition. After briefly trying to crack the code of what it means to be human on stage, she eventually found another route to answering the same question: Developmental psychology and the translation of academic research on parenting. Find out how taking on a role and being prepared to embody it can be two different things…on today’s Roads Taken, with me, Leslie Jennings Rowley.
Today, I'm here with Aliza Pressman and we are going to talk about not only raising good humans, but being good humans and what it really even means to be human in these crazy days. So Aliza, thank you so much for being here.
AP: Thank you for having me this still so awesome already.
LJR: Oh, good. Well, we'll see after these two questions. So I start the same way every time and I ask: When we were in college, who were you? And when we were getting ready to leave, who did you think you would become?
AP: Oh my goodness. That just gave me a wave of I'm not sure what, but some of my whole nervous system just was like moved. So I obviously haven't thought about it in a while.
LJR: It's been awhile.
AP: It's been such a long while. I was thinking about how this fall—because I just saw my freshman year roommate, who's still one of my best friends in the world—but I was like, we will have known each other 30 years. What?
LJR: I know.
AP: Okay, well, the second part of the question, I definitely know I am not at all in any way, shape or form what I set out or thought I would be professionally or even lifestyle-wise. I can say that. But who was I at Dartmouth? Well, for one thing, I failed Psych One. So I think it's kind of funny that I'm a developmental psychologist.
LJR: It just took you time to develop.
AP: So I'm a real growth mindset. Get back on the horse kind of gal. I remember when I applied to Dartmouth, the reason why I applied early and thought it was so amazing was because every other school that I looked at I felt very similar to the student body and like a very progressive, more artsy in orientation kind of person and I got to Dartmouth and I felt like, oh, I have never met people like this before. And I will feel more unique here.
LJR: Ah, okay. And did you feel unique?
AP: Well, I think I had like a foot in two different worlds there. Like I had my artsier world and friends, and then I had my athletic friends and sorority sisters and I did feel like in each setting I maybe didn't quite fit in as much. But nobody ever gave me trouble for it.
LJR: Yeah. Yeah. And it's a recurring theme that all of us felt like we didn't really fit in anywhere we were. But yet we all felt like maybe everyone else is feeling this way too. [AP: Right.] So I think that that has proven out. So what was your major at Aliza?
AP: I was art history modified with English and drama. So it was a double major, but with M ma there were, there were three parts to it. It was English, art, history, and drama.
LJR: Got it. So were those the fields that were kind of stirring in you thinking, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to leave and pursue this kind of artistic life.
AP: I either wanted to pursue theater or art history. Again, nothing that I ended up landing on for very long.
LJR: Right, right. But those first few steps feel so momentous after college. And so when kind of that door was open, what did you think? Like what was the first step on a path that you took and then how did you start to deviate or when?
AP: I was thinking, oh, I want to get a PhD in art history and Southern Baroque art. And I'm going to be a professor, was what my thought my senior year And then I was doing a play by the way I never pursued art history again. So that story ended with, I didn't even think twice about it, but I had, I did have that plan. And then my last, like senior spring toward the very end of the year, I was doing a play with my theater friends and the theater department. And one of them was David Harbour. Who's now like a big, a big old, famous. Actor. But at the time we were doing a play called ‘Tis Pitty She's a Whore and the ending scene was really dramatic. And I started to cry and David was like in it with me, but much more in control. And I think he started to notice that I was crying.
LJR: For real.
AP: Very real. Sobbing. And I realized in that moment, I was like, this is the last play I'm ever going to do on my whole life. And I just lost my mind, which by the way, he was so mad at me. He was like, you can't do that to somebody on stage. So I cried and cried and cried. And then I was like, maybe. Maybe I'm going to join this group of people. And one of them was David to start a theater company because maybe I'm not done with that part of me. And somehow we thought that it would be fun. We also did it with Marsha Blake who was in 96 and we thought we would merge some of our loves: literature, theater, and acting and writing. We did that for a couple of years and it was so much fun and they stuck with it. They were always better. I'm not being, there's no nothing to humble about it. I was fine, but I was like, you know, not great. I was just fine. And they were amazing. And they also had something to say in the world. And I remember being in New York city and doing a play and I was reading Harry Potter. And I wanted to get off stage to get back to my Harry Potter. And that was the day that I was like, oh, I'm not I've, I've heard this a million times. If you don't have to do this, don't do it. [LJR: Right.] So I never did it again. And it was so beautiful. It was such a happier way for me to not do it. Then the first time that I thought I was never going to do it again, which was senior spring when I just wasn't ready to let go of it. [LJR: Yeah.] But then I was bored of it and like was like, what am I doing?
And then it happened simultaneously. I was doing some volunteer work with kids and doing play theater games. And somebody told me about a program at NYU called drama therapy. And so I went to talk to the head of the department and learn about it. And he said, why don't you take a few prerequisites for this program? Cause it's like the middle of the year right now. And you can't just sign up for a new degree and a new career. So I took abnormal psych, which would be the equivalent of clinical. And because I had not taken any psych except Psych One at Dartmouth. So I took abnormal, counseling, social and developmental, which are like the big branches of psychology. And I just, like speed dating, I mean, I just fell in love with developmental psychology. And so then I went to graduate school and then it evolved into, I guess, where I am now.
LJR: Wow. So it really was this morph of an old love and a new burgeoning passion that you didn't even know existed. Yeah.
AP: Didn't even know it existed at all. No clue whatsoever, except maybe that I really was interested in the human condition and all of the things that you read about when you're reading literature or look at when you're studying art or theater or the things that I looked at, there are plenty of things to…approaches to take, but I was always sort of obsessed with how we come to be.
LJR: Exactly, which is definitely what one does…developmental is kind of the study of us as little, little beings predominantly, and how we figure out who we are in the world and even what the world means around us. You've had lots of ways to practice that. So it wasn't just, I mean, there, there are stairsteps to become a practicing psychologist, of course, but you had kind of a, I don't know, not a unique situation, but you had really interesting programs. Tell us about those.
AP: Typically developmental psychologists go into policy or academics and that's your space. So in that sense, I really didn't do exactly what was laid out in this field either. While I was in graduate school, I think I started working first I was looking at teenagers. So I started with adolescents then tons of the research was talking about parenting during adolescence and the impact that environmental impact. But then I started to get like, well, wait a second. There's so much you can do when you start before adolescence. What about when in their infancy and childhood and even prenatally? So then I switched my focus to younger, and then I went back to feeling like the only thing we can control is ourselves. And so I want to work with parents because they actually can't control their kids. They can only control themselves. And so that's cool. I thought that was very heartening. And because then we can let go of all the other stuff.
And then I got pregnant. I really realized that there was so much incredible academic work. There was such information from developmental, the field of developmental psychology that was not really getting anywhere outside of academia. So it was just like, what are we doing with this from a practical standpoint when it's not psychopathology. And I also got pregnant. So even though policy was really interesting and I was excited about policy, I also was excited to be with my baby and I was fascinated by who I wanted to hear from and who I didn't want to hear from when I was having a baby. And so I started to talk to other colleagues who were pregnant and had going through the same thing. And from that, we started kind of a private practice of supporting parents, but with a voice from this academic background. And then it just started, grew into mom groups. And then on the side, when I started teaching at Mount Sinai, actually because another 96 was there doing pediatrics, Blair Hammond, formerly Blair Seidler. And Blair, she would call me about behavior and development stuff. And then finally, she said, why don't you come teach the residents. And I, so I started teaching residents at Mount Sinai in pediatrics and their behavior and development rotation. And then we, we talked so much, we ended up founding a parenting center at Mount Sinai, Blair and I, because we thought it's such a, there's such siloed fields, the fields that serve children and families, why aren't we putting our heads together and then creating curriculum for the people who work with children and families in the healthcare setting, because that's when you definitely have access to families. And then after that, it's, you know, who knows. And so that was all strange paths, too. And we're still going strong today.
LJR: So that’s Seedlings.
AP: So no. So see my private practice with all the mom groups that I'm still doing them. [LJR: Okay.] And then I, co-founded the Mount Sinai parenting center at Mount Sinai at the Icahn School of Medicine with Blair. And that's all nonprofit and incredibly, just, it's really wonderful to, to also use a different lens, but the same tools.
And then I started a podcast because it just, I don't even know why I started a podcast, but it seemed like a fun way to get the science to parents and practical stuff and to caregivers and to professionals, because there just isn't enough time to how many mom groups and clients can you have or how much teaching time. And there's so much that feels like, oh, this is an easy way to also access it.
LJR: Yeah. And it draws upon your performative skills, a bit of that. Yeah? And it does the job that you're trying to do of get that knowledge out of the academy and journals, where nobody's looking and all of those, and just making sure that it's as widely accessible as possible. And what I love, too, is that idea, you know, you say, you know, you kind of put away the theater, but if you think about what was drawing you, it was how do we, how do we help these kids? We help the parents not help change the kids, but help change themselves. And it's because the parents are taking on a role, right? [AP: Yeah.] Just like you had to take on roles, they take, they're walking into a role that they either. Thought they knew what that role was about, or they didn't know what it was about or they’re..
AP: There are a lot of shoulds.
LJR: Yeah, exactly. And so it's, it's almost like you're doing character studies with them of like, okay, but who could you be? And who are you as the actor? And and what choices, you know, actors make choices, what choices can you make? And to David's point, you know, how do you control yourself? Don't don't do that, right? Don't do that in front of me, if I'm your kid or if I'm your fellow actor. So I think, I think it's a really interesting old story that you pulled out.
So you'd gotten pregnant once
AP: I have two kids.
LJR: Yeah, that happened again
AP: That happened again.
LJR: So how old are they now?
AP: I have a 12 year old and a 15 year old.
LJR: Excellent. So when you were starting, you kind of had, had started with teens, you shifted to a younger cohort and as your kids have aged, have you kind of grown with them in the things that you've been most interested in?
AP: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'll always think infancy is like, is so fascinating to me. But all of it is, but I, for sure. My mom groups, even though I might intellectually be equipped, I feel like the practical part of it, it's still all in…It's just, it's theory for me. So I don't want to talk about it. So I'll end the groups. If their kids are over 15, I'm out.
LJR: When they’re older than yours.
AP: Yeah. So I am more interested, of course, with every year that my kids get older, I get more interested in that age group and I love adolescents so much. But I definitely, yeah, I couldn't pick a favorite time. It has evolved. There's just so many cool parts of development at every stage. So…when I was working the other day, I looked down and it was three o'clock and I had started at five in the morning cause I was working on New York time. And I didn't even notice where the day went, not in a bad way, but in a I'm so lucky that I'm still find work so fas—It's such a luxury to be really fascinated by work. And it's not that it's fun all the time. It's just, I know that it's a privilege to enjoy what you're doing. And part of that is that I can really…people are never boring. So it's endlessly interesting.
LJR: Because you are interacting with somebody, people, but I can imagine too, that you're learning…as you're learning about your kids and their new social environments and developmental stages, all those things, it really comes back to you though. And so you are evolving as we all are [AP: Yeah, I hope so.]…certainly as parents, but also as individuals who are having to be also parents. So what are some of the things. Kind of have shocked you about your parenting journey that you knew academically—Oh, this is probably coming—and then once you got there, you were like, oh wait, this is what it feels like. Do you have any of those?
AP: I have one now because my, I know I've said so many times how teenagers, like they need to kind of push away and come back. I mean, not me; this is the research. But, I am endlessly floored when my teenage daughter is like, mom, back off, like I want space and I'm like, you don't really want space. You love me. Like, we're, we're so close. Right? And she's like, you're so annoying. I will tell people until I'm blue in the face, like not to take it personally and back off and be a cat, not a dog. I always say. Like pull out your cat personality, not your dog personality, which is obviously just cause I, I don't know why I think everybody understands my worldview through the lens of pets. But…
LJR: The aloof I'm there but….
AP: Exactly. I'm here, but I don't need you. Right. And instead I'm like wagging my tail, like totally panting at the door to get attention for my teenagers. And I intellectually am so aware of how ridiculous I am and it's just like, I can't help it. So I think that self-control, even though we have it, we've we have capacity for it. There are moments when I watch my parenting from above and I'm Oh, you are really just taking some liberties to just do a terrible job right now. But I guess I'm easier on myself in the sense that I also know in my bones that we are not meant to be perfect parents and I have no aspirations to not be super flawed. So I am a little easier on my, I imagine.
LJR: Yeah. So looking back at Lisa at the 20 something, getting ready to leave college Aliza, and if you'd sat her down and said, by the way, in 25 years, this is what your life's going to look like. What would she say?
AP: I do not know. That's so wild. What would she say? I guess I would say, well, first I'd be very surprised that I was divorced because I was like such a kid who was like, I don't believe in divorce, even if you're miserable. I was so certain that that's like my one thing. So I would definitely, that would throw me. I would be floored that I'm in California because I'm such an east coaster in my mind. Certainly my twenty-something self thought. I was a real east coaster. But I would feel incredibly relaxed to find out that it all falls into place. And I would be thrilled that I got my two girls. I wanted daughters, in a way that was so inappropriate that it's like, I mean, I had two daughters who identify very much as girls and so I didn't get, and I had a sister, so there were just so many things I didn't understand about boys. And I was like, I just want girls and just make myself, give myself some ease. I think I would tell myself that that was a relief, which is in bonkers to say out loud, given my job.
LJR: But there's nothing wrong with like, yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's valid and you've already said, you know, what a joy and luxury it is to have a passion for what you do. And that everyday goes quickly because you're really still in it. I think anybody told that we'll be like, oh, okay then, whatever it is that even a if it’s…
AP: Totally
LJR: Yeah. That's a good thing.
AP: I think if we can all college students purpose, like help them find purpose or know that they will find purpose. It can just lead to such wellbeing. It's I mean, this is just the science of it. When you have purpose, whatever that is, however you interpret purpose it's so it's so good for you. And so good for those around you.
LJR: Yeah, but as even as your life has evidenced, that capital P passion doesn't have to appear right away.
AP: Oh God no! Thank you for saying that. Capital P passion is so…it's so true. It doesn't have to be appear right away. And also I think a lowercase Ps are just fine. I think there was also in college, a sense of like, I mean, a little bit like mature love versus high school, college love of like the things that last for a long time are not necessarily going to feel in your stomach the way, the things that are quick burning, like a quick hobby or something that you're like, I'm obsessed with this, but it's not sustainable. There's something about finding a purpose that is sustainable. And there's something about finding passion that is sustainable, which, the very nature of passion is that it's not, but I think when you give it a little lowercase. [LJR: Yeah.] It’s totally sustainable.
LJR: Yeah. And, and even the smaller ones, those, those butterfly feelings, all of those, those are valid too. And, and when you think, oh, maybe I shouldn't be feeling this because I need my bigger thing or maybe this is you just. Need to stop confusing the urgency of figuring it all out, right?
AP: Yeah. And hopefully, I mean, I think the coolest thing is that we get to this age and we still have so much to learn and we haven't figured it all out. Like to me, that gives you a plane of possibilities. If you figured it all out, that feels very heavy to just know that this is it. And there's nothing more to learn and no more curiosity. So I hope my younger self would appreciate, but probably would not, the excitement of not knowing everything.
LJR: Well, I think she did. She had that growth mindset already early on. So coming back in handy. So Aliza, this has been a delight and I'm so glad that you're at least for right now in a place that feels so good insecure, and you have a lot left to learn as we all do, but we really appreciate your sharing these stories with us today.
AP: Thank you. It was so my pleasure.
LJR: That was Aliza Pressman, known nationally as Dr. Aliza, who is a developmental psychologist with decades’ experience working with families. She received a Masters in Risk, Resilience and Prevention from the Department of Human Development at Teacher’s College and her PhD in developmental psychology from Columbia and is an Assistant Clinical Professor in the Behavioral Health Department of Pediatrics at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital. After co-founding SeedlingsGroup and the Mount Sinai Parenting Center (the latter with fellow classmate Blair Seidler Hammond) she began the Raising Good Humans Podcast. Featuring other psychologists and national parenting authorities, as well as such notable parents as Drew Barrymore, Jessica Alba, and Jennifer Garner, her podcast conversations sprinkle in the latest academic research on child development and deliver it directly to parents. Find out more at DrAliza.com.
Each week on our show, we sprinkle a little fun, wisdom, and nostalgia into our conversations. Make sure you don’t miss any of it by checking us out at RoadsTakenShow.com or following or subscribing wherever you get your podcasts where you’ll find a new guest and me, Leslie Jennings Rowley, on another episode of Roads Taken.
Hey, members of the Dartmouth Class of 1996: We’re lucky to have Aliza join an upcoming all-star panel of adolescent health and parenting experts Megan Mullen, Koraly Perez-Edgar, and Mary Romano in an online event April 21: “Why is my Teen doing that and what do I do now?” Check it out at dartmouth1996.org where later this week, on April 1, members of our class can also register for our in-person, slightly postponed 25th Reunion held in Hanover July 22-24. Bookmark the site so you can snag the early bird rate. Can’t wait to see you there!