The identity that Michael Roberts bore—both throughout high school and college and beyond it—was largely that of a musician. When the life of a professional singer didn't materialize as quickly as hoped, he realized that what he loved about the music-making process he could actually take with him into the business world. Find out how getting better at communicating what you have in mind and connecting with people can help make impact in the world.
Guest Michael Roberts had already taken on the identity of musician—specifically singer—while in high school. He was encouraged by his parents to attend college where he could be pursue what he loved while being exposed to a wide range of subjects and experiences through a liberal arts curriculum. It would also be convenient if he attended Dartmouth, the same place his three siblings had already enrolled. And so he did, and he continued to live into the singer identity, graduating into a master’s program in vocal music with his sights set on continuing a professional voice career. When he moved to New York and saw others who had gained the discipline and more honed skillset that an undergraduate conservatory experience provided, he realized he might have to supplement his earnings with something else.
He landed a job in consulting and, swiftly moving through the ranks, realized strategy consulting let him dwell in big ideas and communicate with a variety of people. Eventually, his experience in strategy and internal consulting at the top levels of a number of global firms, led him to a project setting strategy for marketing operations. This eventually led to his gaining an on-the-job MBA in marketing and to leadership roles and finally the Chief Marketing Officer role. Throughout his business career, he has been able to apply the lessons at the core of making music—taking risks, putting in the work to get better, and learning how to communicate what you need to say to a new audience all the time.
In this episode, find out from Michael how getting better at communicating what you have in mind and connecting with people can help make impact in the world…on Roads Taken with Leslie Jennings Rowley.
About This Episode's Guest
Michael Roberts is currently Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at MetLife, one of the global leaders in insurance, annuities, and employee benefit programs. Previously he has held the CMO role and other senior strategy and marketing positions at some of the biggest names in the financial sector including TIAA and Vanguard. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife and two children and is still an active classical vocalist.
Executive Producer/Host: Leslie Jennings Rowley
Music: Brian Burrows
Find more episodes at https://roadstakenshow.com
Email the show at RoadsTakenShow@gmail.com
Michael Roberts: That’s when the transition challenged my identity, really pushed on kind of who I was and I was angry for a good amount of time. Then I found that there were other things that I could love doing. And that was almost like a cathartic moments when I realized not only that I could like something else would love something else, but I could be good at it, too.
Leslie Jennings Rowley: The identity that Michael Roberts bore--both throughout high school and college and beyond it--was laregly that of a musician. When the life of a professional singer didn't materialize as quickly as hoped, he realized that what he loved about the music-making process he could actually take with him into the business world. Find out how getting better at communicating what you have in mind and connecting with people can help make impact in the world...on today's Roads Taken, with me, Leslie Jennings Rowley.
I'm here today with my friend Michael Roberts, and we are going to talk about the soundtrack of our lives and the ways that we make melody and harmony with those around us. So, Michael, thank you so much for being part of this.
MR: It is wonderful to see you, Leslie.
LJR: All right. So I'm going to start this the same way I do with everyone asking two questions and they are these when we were in college, who are you? And when we were getting ready to leave, who did you think you would become?
MR: Such an interesting question to reflect on kind of that period, which was so kind of weird and blurry and so long ago. But I guess the answer to the question is who was I in college, I think it goes back a little bit to, you know, my family, you know, I'm the youngest of four kids, all of whom went to Dartmouth. So my brother was a 91, sister 93, sister 94, and I was a 96. And so growing up in a family with siblings that close, you know, a lot of my identity was essentially based on the activities that I did. And so, and cause that's how we distinguish one from another. [LJR: Right. Right.] So, you know, my brother was a history major and a bit of a jock and a runner. And my sister was an actress. My other sister was an artist and a painter. And so. Who was I at Dartmouth? I was a guy who did music and sang and majored in music. And, you know, my identity was really was created by the activities that I did. Now, also in college, I was a pretty social guy as well. And, you know, I felt like a part of who I was, was kind of this, a social animal that really enjoyed spending time with friends and, and being in social situations. But my dominant identity, at least how I saw myself, was through music.
LJR: Yeah. And so I will let you answer the second one, but you've already mentioned that your sisters had this dramatic streak and artistic streak. And so it seems like you had a family that really valued, not only the intellectual side of being kind of [a] successful person that way, but a recognition that arts played a role. Can you talk a little bit about that?
MR: Yeah, I mean, I go back to, you know, James Friedman's book. So back to the time of year, there is definition. Of a liberal education. My parents really believed in the idea of small L liberal education. And so you know, in order to be a well-rounded human being, a good citizen of the world, you had to have exposure to lots of different things. And, you know, the arts was one of the things my parents, you know, made sure that we had equivalent exposure, just like everything else. And in a lot of ways, there wasn't any specific pressure for us to do any specific thing. And so, we got to choose and we all chose something slightly different based on what we liked, what we were good at and what interested us at the time. And we just happened to kind of have the arts in part of our family. I also, I think back to, you know, I think it was John Adams, the description of what happens to immigrants when they come to the United States, the first-generation tends to be professional. So my brother was a lawyer and then the second generation tends to be artists. I feel like my parents were immigrants. My brother was the first generation and the rest of the three of us were the second generation, we were artists. And so, so we defied the stereotype in some way, but aligned with it in another way.
LJR: Yeah. So even families that have that open sense of, you know, everything goes into the mixing bowl in your liberal arts education and the arts is fine…Even those parents don't always want you to be a music major so…
MR: Ok. Well we can go there and see the truth is. My father wanted me to go to Dartmouth for a relatively obvious reason. He wanted to consolidate bills and travel. And
LJR: Economies of scale.
MR: Economies of scale. Exactly. And I really wanted to go to a conservatory. My identity was very much music in the high school as well, but that wasn't, that wasn't something that was really encouraged. You know, Dartmouth was encouraged. And so it was almost a bit of a…it was the compromise. My father was willing to make for all of us that actually. So do what you love in college, as long as you're going to someplace where you get a liberal arts education, because that will give you the most flexibility in life. So he felt like, you know, this was the thing that he wanted to give us. And then we could do with it what we would. And, you know, look, I think we all kind of went in different directions and did different things, but you know, I come back to music was my identity, you know, at that time in college. And, and to answer your second question, Leslie, I don't think that my perspective on who I was changed, you know, and who I thought I was going to be changed that much upon leaving Dartmouth. I thought I was going to be a musician. I went straight to music school and did a masters in voice and, you know, moved to New York and tried to sing. And so for, for a good long time, high school, college, and then grad school and just beyond, you know, I thought I knew who I was and I thought that that person was a musician.
LJR: Yeah. And that's interesting because I think, where you ultimately now have landed is actually where some people that knew you and knew you as, you know, with the musical identity might have…But that makes sense too. So we'll get there. But so trying your hand at music. So you started in Boston, right?
MR: Yes. I started, I started in Boston, so I went to a Boston university school for the arts and did a masters in voice, spent a little bit of time in Boston, afterschool singing in the Boston area and then intended to go to graduate school again for another music degree, I had my eye on CCM, the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music to study with a teacher there that I thought was, you know, the best in the world. The problem with that plan was I met a girl
LJR: Always the girl.
MR: I met a girl who was moving to New York to continue her singing career. And she actually had one, like, or she had a real career. And so I went to New York with her. That was the beginnings of moved out down a different path. York's a hard place to start as a singer. I mean, and so, you know, unless you're established and, and the truth was, you know, technically I wasn't. You know, even after all that schooling, I didn't have the benefit of, you know, the discipline and focus that one would have in an undergrad conservatory. You know, technically I just wasn't as good as I needed to be in order to make it work in that context. And so…
LJR: And you were probably like reminded of that daily, surrounded by those who had done that, right? And had, yeah. And that's not a good feeling either like, oh, I could fake it till I make it. Oh. But look, I can't fake it till I make it…
MR: Exactly. I mean, I had tons of fun going to. You know, going to see friends at different opera festivals around the country and, and hearing great performances of young singers. Some of them are very famous singers today. But you know, looking back on it, I wasn't ready. It wasn't for me at that point in my, in my life.
LJR: Yeah. And so w was that a. Pretty abrupt like recognition, and I'm going to have to find an alternate path, or I'm going to just keep, I'm going to have some other things going and keep a foot in. How did that, how did that work for you?
MR: It was, I I'm going to have some other things and keep her foot in for a little while until those other things became things that I could love, right? And so it, the shift for me was when I realized I could love doing something else. There was a period in there where I was actually just angry about, you know, not being able to do the thing that I, that was my identity. And so that sort of transition challenged my identity. It really pushed on, you know, kind of who I was. And I was angry for a good amount of time. Then I found that there were other things that I could love doing. And, and that was almost like a cathartic moment when I realized not only that I could like something else or love something else to do, but I could be good at it as well. And so that was a tough transition and it wasn't abrupt. It was somewhat gradual, but a really important moment for me, which taught me about a little bit more about who I’d become and you know what I like to what I loved, you know, the things that were, would be motivating for me as a kind of, as a person.
LJR: Well, and it's not that you wanted to do music because you just liked the sound of it. You were the kind of musician who connected to other people through the music, right?
MR: Yeah, yeah. This, this is the thing in retrospect and what I learned, you know, about, about me and music. And this is so different from so many musicians I've talked to it's like, what do you love about music? In some cases, some people I've talked to haven't really inspected it, you know, in some ways. And they're answers are, are a lot all over the place. And a lot of what a lot of musicians have a very specific reason why they love music and love doing music. For me, what I discovered was I loved the process. I love rehearsing. I loved like, feeling like I was getting better at something. And the something that I was getting better at was the ability to take what I imagined I wanted to say as a musician and having that be the thing that comes out. And so for me, you know, and this is a journey I'm still on. I still study. I still, you know, perform from time to time. It's, you know, it's minute by minute, hour by hour self-realization, you know, that gives me more tools in order to express what I imagine. And, and that's the thing I really love about music. And it's one of the reasons why I was able to come back to music after that period of, you know, anger and disappointment. You know, that understanding that I, I just wanted to be better. I just wanted to be able to be better at expressing what I imagined and be able to better express what imagined in order to connect with people was what I really wanted from music. And in a lot of ways I found it. I found it. I found a great teacher. I found, you know, these outlets to perform. I found, you know, people that I can collaborate with. And so I have this nice balance, you know, which, where music is still part of what I do, I'm clear about how it fits into my identity and I get to do it.
MR: Yeah. Okay. So we're going to hold there. We want to come back to that. So let's, let's figure out when you've made that original, like, okay, this is, I probably need to be looking at other paths and starting to create a new identity. What, what were the steps on that path?
MR: So I ended up falling into a job in consultant and some client-serving consulting, and then. I looked around the company and said, oh, well, strategy looks like something that's interesting. And it's about ideas and I love ideas and, and, you know, so why don't I just be a strategy consultant? And that's easier said than done when, you know, I have two degrees in music. And so I think for the first, probably five years of my consulting career, I probably had at least an all-nighter a week. So, essentially what I decided is I was going to do this and I by hook or by crook, it didn't matter how hard it was, I was going to make it work. And I was going to get better and better at, you know, at the craft that I had decided. And there was nothing that was going to kind of get in my way. You know, I moved up relatively quickly in the, in the hierarchy. I moved from client-serving consulting to, to internal corporate strategy, which I felt like was, you know, kind of the real expression of strategy. And I ended up working, you know, directly or indirectly for four different CEOs. You know, it was through that experience in those first five years, that I essentially, I would say, I got my MBA. You know, some of it was self-taught, some of it was the luck of the situation I was put in and I saw up close and personal how CEOs were working and it was right around the dotcom bust that all of this started. And so I saw, you know, a company under pressure and the need for transformation and all the experiences to take a career to get was compressed into, you know, a relatively short period of time. And I learned a few key skills. One is how to learn really fast in the business environment, because I had no context. And so essentially I had to create all of the mental models to attach all the knowledge to in order to, in order to learn. And I learned how to communicate complex concepts in the business environment, you know, relatively clearly. And those two skills are the skills that kind of carried me through a lot of the transitions in my career so far.
LJR: And those transitions have taken you from that internal strategy to communicating that internal strategy externally to clients and into the marketing world. So talk about that transition and like what that identity started to really kind of crystallize as, the new identity.
MR: Yeah. That new identity started with strategy and it has maintained strategy throughout it. And so interestingly enough, in every single one of my marketing jobs, there's been some either explicit strategy responsibility or implicit strategy responsibility. So I went to I was at TiAA, the company that serves those who serve others. So mission-driven company. And so I loved that idea and I loved the idea of being at a mission-driven company and got the opportunity to essentially do a project for the CMO. And so we made a deal and she said, you build a strategy function for me within marketing and I'll teach them. And so I said,
LJR: Good trade.
MR: Deal deal. And that was the beginning of my marketing career. It was really, you know, she gave me like, you know, some stuff that didn't need a lot of help, you know, in the beginning. But I built the strategy function and then six months later after I got that job, you know, I got a chance to do another project for her to look at a couple of functions in marketing: create a service function and the marketing operations function and, you know, and give her a recommendation of what to do. So I gave her the recommendation and then she said, okay, now it's yours. Go implement it. And so, so then I was really into marketing. And so I hadn't learned how to, you know, how to, I had to learn how to manage, you know, experts. Essentially, those are two pretty technical parts of the marketing universe. And so I had to learn how to manage experts and rebuild teams and drive a transformation, you know, in two functions that I had never worked in before. But, you know, it was a great way to learn marketing. I learned marketing from the engine room, you know. I started in the engine room. I didn't start with big ideas and, you know, campaigns that, you know, were seen by everybody watching the Olympics or that sort of stuff. I started with like, OK How do we get an email out the door, like who is going to resize this advertisement? Right? That's the sort of stuff I started with, but it was a great experience by the end of my time at TiAA, I also had all of digital and all of analytics. So I had that strategy function, digital, marketing operations and creative across the whole company. And so roughly half of the marketing resources reported into me, you know, during that time. And so I got a really good sense of kind of how work gets done in marketing. And that was my transition into marketing was there. And similar to, I guess, my other experiences, you know, what I then decided as I, okay. So I want to be good at marketing. And so I decided I've got to go figure out how to get better. And so I needed a different set of experiences. And so that carried me through to my next couple of experiences in marketing.
LJR: It's interesting that transformation keeps coming up because, again, there's something that I would imagine that you're drawing on from your artistic soul. That is all about, you know, taking people from one place to like a different emotional plane. You know?
MR: Yeah, it's interesting. I would say that there is that I use that in the people part of it. Right? And so like, how do I communicate with people? How do I motivate people? How do I inspire people? You know, how do I, how do I understand their perspective? How do I share my perspective with them in a meaningful way? But I think the other part of it is, like as a musician in performing it's a risk every time. It's a big risk every time. It's a personal risk. It's if you're risking your identity, you're risking so much. And so, you know, when I look at my experiences and, you know, kind of that theme you keyed on—transformation—it’s like I ran into those situations, you know, kind of head first and took aggressive actions and took the risk, you know? And I think that was, that was because I felt comfortable for two reasons. One, I was used to taking risks, you know, as a musician and you know, I've had plenty of failures as musicians on stage. But the other thing is, in a lot of ways. I no longer had the need for the activity to be my identity. [LJR: Yeah.] So failure didn't challenge who I was. And so there was only upside for me in those situations. And so going back to where, why I love music so much. I mean, a lot of ways that's I think that's who I am. It's somebody who just wants to get better.
LJR: Yeah. Decoupling the identity part is like, sometimes it takes going on a mountain top for that. But that you could get it through, you know, getting better every day at your job, recognizing it's a job. Recognizing I'm, you know, that beginner's mind being able to say, I don't know this, I haven't done my MBA. I'm learning this. I am managing experts. I mean, that's kind of risky, right? I just think. That's a really interesting insight that you had as a young person that then probably let you take more risks. And one of those of course was saying, yeah, I'll put on the big shoes and be a CMO somewhere. A couple of somewheres.
MR: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm now at my third tour of duty as a CMO.
LJR: Amazing.
MR: I'm the global CMO of MetLife. And, you know, after that first marketing experience, I said, okay, so now how do I round out the marketing experiences so that I can, you know, kind of, you know, I can consider myself a professional, right? It's you know, the 10,000 hour rule or whatever it is, you know, to get to mastery. But so I went on from TIAA to Bank of America merchant services, where I was the chief marketing and digital strategy officer, and there, I had responsibility for pricing, marketing, digital strategy, kind of all of the go-to-market functions outside of sales. Except I did have a sales team within my product team who was doing technical sales. So, so I got to learn about complex ecosystems. We were distributing through our own field salesforce, our own phone sales force, the bank’s 5,000 branches, their business bankers or commercial bankers, their corporate bankers, our website, their websites. I mean, it was just this massive complex situation that I had to go understand how marketing fits into a complex go-to-market ecosystem and with businesses that we were serving that were as small as the pizza shop on the corner, or as big as, you know, some of the biggest name brands that you would know, the folks like the Targets and Amazons and Home Depots and those sorts of things. So I got great experience doing that. And then what I was missing was direct to consumer experience. So that's where I went to Vanguard and ran strategy and marketing for their retail business. And so I got my direct to consumer experience. So between the engine room between like a massive B2B experience and then a big brand in business consumer, I felt like I'd finally gotten, you know, a significant amount of the experience that I felt like it would take to become an expert. And then what was left was, you know…
LJR: A blimp!
MR: [laughter] A blimp! Oh, my gosh, this is one of the hardest parts of taking the job at MetLife was I hadn't fully realized that the blimp was no longer and that Snoopy had been retired. It's been hard.
LJR: If you’d known, you might not have chosen. No, I’m just kidding.
MR: Or no! I would have made a demand to the management to bring him back
LJR: Bring him back!
MR: No, it's a different company than the days when Snoopy was there. It's a very different company and it's still an iconic brand in the world. And one of the most amazing things about that life is it's a purpose driven brand. So it started as a mutual, way, way back 154 years ago, you know, and really did a lot for the communities that was involved in the visiting nurse service of New York was started by MetLife. You know, so there's all sorts of great stories of kind of living the purpose of making, of doing good in the world that the company has. There's always some blemishes that, that happened in the 154 years, you don’t everything right. But the ethos of doing good in the world is a huge part of how our leadership team operates. And it was a huge motivator for me to come to the company. You know, our purpose of, you know, building a more confident future is profound. It's not quelling your fears or making you feel okay. It's actually all the way to confidence. And that's a tall order, especially in a world where uncertainty and risk is more complex and more individualized than it ever has been. And so I feel fortunate to get to be part of a group that's trying to do that sort of good in the world.
And one of the things that has become important to me is finding other ways to make an impact kind of on the world and finding people to collaborate with, you know, and so I'm you know, I'm working on this project with some friends of mine where we want to figure out how to democratize mental health treatment. Kind of in like, this is not like a little thing. This is like, okay, You know, the innovation of AA hasn't changed since like the seventies; it's the same program. But it is an example of how you can scale mental health treatment. And so what's the next iteration of that that is applicable to our world. Like that sort of thing. Or a lot of the things that I was focused on, even inside my job at Vanguard was how do we look at what companies talk about in terms of D E and I, and look at it differently, like how do we actually go and make a difference beyond the set of four or five things that every company in the world has been talking about for decades and actually is now finally committed to doing, so great. That's progress, but there's so much more. So, for example, we did a study of called How America Invests. And one of the things that was interesting was to overlay race on five years of investor data and see what the differences were, and then have the possibility of putting a plan together to address that. So there's all of these kind of broader ideas that I believe are really a part of how I want to kind of live and be in the world that are about literally changing the world. And it's not because of hubris. It's just because there's stuff that needs to get done. And so many people who have been on your podcast have done things that, you know, big or small that help change the world. And so, you know, I don't think this is because I am so super special, but you know, I found a couple places where I think I could make a difference. And so I try to.
LJR: So I find it astounding that you're able to do that at such a high level, continue to have music in your life and to have a family.
MR: Yeah, I will say I have a very understanding wife.
LJR: OK.
MR: She understands how important music is to me and how it feeds me. And so, you know, every Sunday for, you know, for a couple hours, I disappear and I go sing with my teacher who I've been singing with for 10 years for a couple of hours. And then sometimes, when I have a performance that's coming up, that will be three or four times a week where I'll disappear for a couple hours in order to rehearse. There are some benefits for her as well. In 2018, I went and sang in Italy and she came along. We stopped in France on the way back. And so there's, there are some benefits. But she is incredibly understanding of my desire to keep that part of my life kind of active and alive.
LJR: Yeah. Cause it's good for your mental health, too, and you're a better person for it.
MR: Yeah, exactly.
LJR: So Michael, looking back at your 20-something self, getting ready to leave college: Steeped in the identity that he was, what would have he said if you'd said, okay, and this is going to be your life 25 years from now.
MR: Oh, Wow. I think he might've said that makes some sense. While I was defined by my activities back then, I'll tell you, you know, there was so much at Dartmouth that was beyond singing that I enjoyed. And there was so much that, you know, I felt like was valuable and useful in the world that we learned that I don't think that I would have looked at that person as a failure, just because it would have challenged the identity that I thought I had. And although, you know, back then my identity, wasn't what I did. My identity was so much more than that. And so there would have been a kind of a cathartic moment of, you know, understanding like, That's not who I am, who I am is something different than that. [LJR: Yeah.] I think looking back, looking forward that that self back then would have said good, that you're doing good in the world.
LJR: I'm sure he would have, because I think a lot of us could have seen, I don't know, we couldn't have seen this coming, but it would have been very like, oh yeah, that seems totally Michael. And so that's a good thing. It just takes us to get on our own road and we'll get there eventually. And you're, I think a great example of that. So, Michael, thank you so much for sharing this with us and for continuing to bring joy to people, whether it's on a stage or through messages or just being you, so thanks so much.
ML: Thanks, Leslie. It’s great to be here.
LJR: That was Michael Roberts, currently the Chief Marketing Officer at MetLife. Previously he's held the CMO role and other senior strategy and marketing positions at some of the biggest names in the financial sector including TIAA and Vanguard. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife and two children and still actively fires up those heavenly pipes of his.
Michael only recently started listening to the podcast, but now he's hooked and knows that the way to access all the previous episodes is by checking out the archive at RoadsTakenShow.com. You can also subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and rate and review the show-there so others know it's worth joining me, Leslie Jennings Rowley for more on Roads Taken.