Knowing he was interested in the world of economics and finance, Burns McKinney would take one role and then keep an eye out for what the other guys were doing. Not necessarily feeling their grass was greener, he was just open to the next thing that might be a better fit. Find out how sometimes looking over the fence makes you realize the grass can be pretty green at home.
As many of us do, Burns McKinney had a high school teacher who made things come alive, even in the dismal science of economics. With that fire, Burns knew what he wanted to study in college and sought out professors who had that same desire to go beyond theory to application and real-world significance. Starting in the investment banking world in New York City, this Texan learned the fundamentals and how to work hard, but found he would take a role and keep an eye out for what the other guys were doing. Not necessarily feeling their grass was greener, he was just open to the next thing that might be a better fit. When he found the fit in buy-side investment management and refined skills and connections in business school, he also wanted to grow a family. But he knew he wanted to do that closer to his roots.
In this episode, find out from Burns how sometimes looking over the fence makes you realize the grass can be pretty green at home.
About This Episode's Guest
Burns McKinney is currently Senior Portfolio Manager at NFJ Investment Group, a global value equity manager in Dallas, where he's been for the last two decades. His two children are nearly grown, so you will probably find him in Dallas or traveling with his wife Barb to see live music or sporting events.
Burns McKinney: One concept I had learned early on was that a lot of a career path isn't necessarily moving in a straight line. Oftentimes where you're going may look a little bit more like a zigzag. You always want at least moving in a general direction rather than moving backwards. And so, you know, a lot of what I spent my time doing was finding what I liked and then refining the job
Leslie Jennings Rowley: Knowing he was interested in the world of economics and finance, Burns McKinney would take one role and then keep an eye out for what the other guys were doing. Not necessarily feeling their grass was greener, he was just open to the next thing that might be a better fit. Find out how sometimes looking over the fence makes you realize the grass can be pretty green at home….on today's Roads Taken with me, Leslie Jennings Rowley.
Today I'm here with Burns McKenney and we're gonna talk about leaving home and coming back and string not so far and what all that means in the span of almost three decades. So Burns, thanks so much for coming on the show with us.
BM: Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me.
LJR: All right. When I have a new guest, I ask them two questions and they are these, when we were in college, who were you and when we were getting ready to leave, who did you think you would become?
BM: That’s great. You know, I, going back to who I was in college, I don't think I was terribly exciting or, or newsworthy. I was an economics major. That was one of the things that I had a pretty good idea that I wanted to study. I was fortunate enough. I, you know, everyone kind of has that one teacher along the way that, that moved them or touched them. I had an old fellow in high school named Hugh Franks, and he was just one of those, you know, hippies, long beard, long hair. The, the kind of guy that, you know, they make movies about that inspired me. And, you know, I just love learning about the study of scarcity, how things are allocated, supply, demand, the likes thereof. And so when I went to Dartmouth, I was an economics major. I enjoyed my time doing that. In fact, I was, you know, during my internship my junior year, I also worked at the Federal Reserve Board of Governors.
And, you know, some of my free time when I was there, I made a little bit of side money between either tutoring and macroeconomics or I I worked helping one of our professors, professor Cohen, proofreading a macro textbook that he worked on. So. Other things I did when I was in college, I made a little bit of spending money working as a, a drill instructor in Spanish.
It was really something for which, you know, I didn't come to Dartmouth with any remote level of fluency in Spanish, but you know, I kind of went through the traditional route where I took, you know, Spanish classes there. I did my LSA in Granada, Spain, and when I came back I auditioned to be a drill instructor just as a way to, to make some money and really just to help maintain my Spanish. It’s something that, you know, when I talk about to young kids today, I think one of the really best things Dartmouth has to offer is its language department and the Rassias method that, you know, drove a lot of us crazy having to get up 7:45 AM drill. Just, you know, the idea of, you know, quick thinking on your feet, conjugation speaking aloud is something that I think really is a place where Dartmouth was on the forefront of innovation.
And so I was fortunate enough to work as a drill instructor. For some of my time there I was in AD, the Alpha Delta fraternity. I wouldn't say that I spent the most time in the house, but you know, I had a great experience with that. I think one of the things that is also unique to us that I feel really fortunate about with Dartmouth was that obviously being in a small town, the Greek system was something that was pretty highly prevalent. But I think Dartmouth did a good job of taking something that, you know, may or may not be inherently exclusive and making it as inclusive as possible. And I really liked the fact that we didn't go through Rush until sophomore year. So, you know, in that sense, rather than, you know, going through that and those become your friends. You know, we just made our friendships, the good old fashioned, organic way, you know, through, you know, people that lived in our dorm, people that lived down the hall, just friends from classes and then, you know, just got to, to do that along the side. So, yeah, I had a great time in in my four years at Dartmouth. That's basically who I was when I was there.
LJR: Alright. So who then, when you were 22-ish, did you think Burns was gonna be in the future?
BM: Yeah, you know, a lot, you know, a lot of people were fortunate enough to know that they, they knew exactly where they were going, what they were going to be doing. I wasn't one of those people. You know, I really, you know, wasn't really sure what was out there.
I work today in investment management, and the job I do today is one that. I didn't even know existed back in 1996. I think that it's kind of crazy that I look at, you know, some of the kids nowadays look at my kids and, and they're increasingly expected to know at the age of 14 what they're gonna be doing when they're 40. And, you know, we, you know, grew up in a different era and we had the ability to, you know, go into college, go into classes, go into jobs, almost like a buffet where, you know, you just wanna sample everything at the table and, and learn on your own what you like and what you might not like. But yeah, I didn't know what I wanted to do.
I went through corporate recruiting. I, you know, I'd studied economics. I liked some of the finance related classes we had in economics. We obviously didn't have the ability to, you know, focus on finance as undergrads. I think that the, there's a lot of value in having a liberal arts education. You know, I think a lot of the key things you learn are, you know, you learn how to learn, you learn how to adapt and adjust and you know, something as well. I think almost every job out there, just learning to, to read and learning how to write well is something that is crucial no matter what you do. I mean, I've worked in finance my whole life and people might not think of writing as being a key thing. And it's, it's one of the few things I use every day. So, yeah, I thought I might wanna do finance. I hadn't had a lot of exposure to it, but you know, we did have, a lot of the investment banks came and they did corporate recruiting on campus. And admittedly, a lot of what I was doing was a little bit like a lemming where I was just kind of following the crowd to these info sessions and you know, just seeing what they had to offer. And you know, I think one of the key pitches that really resonated with me was that they described, you know, some of these investment banking analyst programs as being almost like a continuing education or just a two to three year crash course in, you know, getting a foundation in finance. Something for which, no matter what direction you go after that. You know, it's not gonna set you back. And it basically did that, you know, it taught me valuation, it taught me accounting. It just taught me really how to work hard and work long hours. And I did that, you know. I think as well, I went and, you know, lived with some of my Dartmouth friends in New York for three years while I was doing investment banking and going through that, it was very much a work hard, play hard sort of thing. You know, I enjoyed being, you know, in New York, you know, in the young twenties it was certainly a great place to be. It's a melting pot for which everyone there is from somewhere else. Everyone's in the same boat, and so it makes for a great place to meet people.
And yeah, I got a lot out of it. I learned in that job one of the things I learned was that wasn't necessarily what I wanted to make a career out of. And it, you know, if anything, the, probably the most important thing I got out of it was that I met my wife Barb, you know. She worked at Alex Brown about the same time I did. And so, you know, that's, that's the best thing I, I got out of it. I think, you know, I was fortunate to have the best thing that ever happened to me was that I went into the iBanking division at Alex Brown for that reason alone. But really, you know, I think one, you know, kind of concept that I had learned or been told early on was that, you know, a lot of a career path isn't necessarily moving in a straight line. Oftentimes, you know where you're going may look a little bit more like a zigzag. The idea being at the very least, you always wanna at least moving in a general direction rather than moving backwards. And so, you know, a lot of what I spent my time doing was finding what I liked and then refining the job. So in my days in investment banking, one of the things I enjoyed just on my free time was I enjoyed picking stocks. I enjoyed looking for, you know, unloved, unwanted, undervalued stocks just for my own little personal side portfolio. And, you know, one of the things I saw was that, you know, our bank had a sell side research department whose job was to recommend stock purchases.
And so I kind of looked at that and said. Okay, well that, that utilizes a lot of the skills I have, but that's kind of what I'm doing in my free time. So why don't I go and do that? And so, you know, after I worked in investment banking at Alex Brown, I, I spent some time at Morgan Stanley and, and Merrill Lynch working as a sell side research analyst.
And yet again, I sort…almost like the grass always being greener. You kind of look at the other side and say, well, what is someone else doing that I kinda wanna do that. And so, you know, doing that sell side research, namely what we're doing, we're building valuation models, we're researching stocks, and then we're re making recommendations to buy side investors, whether it's, you know, mutual fund managers, endowment managers, family office managers, and there's the ones that are actually buying the stocks. And I thought, well, I'm making the recommendations. They're the ones pulling the trigger. You know, maybe I just wanna remove the middleman. And so I then concluded that I wanted to make that shift and really in order to make the transition, just because sometimes, you know, you just, well, I don't have the connections. I don't know what's out there. I don't know who's out there. And so I did go back to business school to get my MBA. I got my MBA in finance at the Wharton School at Penn, and had a great two years there. Well, actually a lot of my closest friends there were former Dartmouth classmates, people that I knew. So it's, it's an example of how we Dartmouth folks, maybe we just don't play well with others, but you know, we do tend to stick together in that cultish way that, that we were known to do. But, you know, I had a great experience doing that and then came out of that and did, you know, get a job doing buy-side investment management.
I got a job in Boston at the time, primarily because my wife was one year behind me in business school, and she was up in Boston. And so I found a job in Boston and you know, I worked for a money manager up there for, for two or three years. She was working at Gillette in marketing up there. And then, you know, Barb, she's from the south as she's not from the northeast. She grew up in Alabama. Her family's in kind of rattle around North Carolina. And so she and I both kind of had the mindset that, you know, once we started having a family, maybe we'd wanna move a little bit closer to home. And so, you know, once we found out…
LJR: Home being for you, Texas.
BM: Oh yeah. I, yeah. I grew up in Texas. I grew up in a small town, Midland, Texas, and I knew I was never gonna find my way back to Midland, but, you know, we thought we'd at least find something a little bit closer to one of our families. And so back in, I think 2005 when we were expecting our first child, that's when I started kind of looking around at doing the same thing, but just finding something closer to families. And you know, I looked around everywhere from, you know, Dallas to Houston, Charlotte, Atlanta, and really the best opportunity that I came across was right here in Dallas.
So we moved here, you know, we kind of brought our three month old daughter. She was born in Boston, so she's our northern child, northeasterner and she loves celebrating that as well. But, you know, we moved here and I've been a portfolio manager at an investment management firm here in Dallas ever since for the last 20 years.
LJR: And how I am really curious about being a Texas boy. Moving to the northeast, moving to New York, all of that sounds exciting. But when you do go back home, where in the calculus? Is it like, I'm where I'm supposed to be because this is my home? Or is it a reaction to the alternatives that you've sampled? Like, you know what I mean?
BM: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think that, you know, the Texas that I ended up ultimately moving back to really, you know, it was almost a different experience than had I stayed there. The one that I was in when I, when I left home, you know. When I went up to Dartmouth, you know, my roommates knew me as I was one of the folks from Texas that, you know, first things first, you know, before I even make my bed, I'm hanging a Texas flag on the, on the wall. I know we Texans tend to, to be that way and, you know, a lot of my plan was I said, well, you know what, I'm graduating college and I'm, I'm getting back to Texas. Obviously that didn't happen. You know, as I said, I spent several years bouncing around the northeast from, you know, New York to Philadelphia, to Boston, you know, really all over the place.
LJR: But did you really think that as, as a 20-year-old, like I'm going back, like an unwritten, in the stars?
BM: I think that was my initial thought. But then I thought as well, I said, okay, well, you know, Texas is full of folks who say, Hey, you know, this is the place to live there. There's nowhere better, you know, Texas till I die and all that. And I thought, well, maybe that's true, but if that's, if that's truly the case, well I'm gonna at least sample something else so I can prove it to myself and know, okay, well I've seen something else and. And you know, it's…who knows where I could have ended up. But, you know, I really enjoyed my time.
As I said, you know, New York was just a complete melting pot of people from other places. And you didn't have to worry about, okay, well this is some social circle. They've been together since, since high school or something like that. You know, we were all, all from elsewhere and, you know, I couldn't have had a better experience.
And, you know, coming back it's kind of unique and interesting is that, you know, when, when we moved here and you know, made a lot of friends, whether it's, you know, through parents of our children's friends or likes thereof, you know, it's kind of interesting that almost all of our friends here now are people that are outsiders and you know, we're are from somewhere else. Either people that live somewhere else or you know, closest friends or folks who, you know, moved here from, you know, from Oregon or from Chicago, you know, really from all over the place. And I think that getting that perspective really adds a lot of value.
LJR: Yeah. And with 20 years of clients, are your clients mostly kind of Texas based individuals, institutions? What's the makeup of people you interact with daily?
BM: It's interesting, you, you would almost think that, you know, there's, there's probably the mindset of folks around here that, hey, I want to invest with someone local. And, you know, ironically enough, we really, our client base is almost disproportionately not from here. You know, we've got clients all over the country and all over the world that's in fact been really, you know, one of the things that's been most interesting about my job through time is what I love about investment management is, you know, I said I love trying to pick undervalued, unloved, cheap stocks. A lot of which is simply because it's just one of those businesses where you know whether you're doing well or not. It is quantifiable. There is a scoreboard every single day. The old analogy I sometimes like to use, it's sort of like fantasy football for grownups. You know, you're always measuring yourself against someone else, and I love that. You know what I didn't realize until I got into it is that I also actually really enjoy, whether it's getting out on the road or nowadays, a lot of it's on Zoom, you know, meeting with some of those clients because I think that's something that, you know, for a couple of reasons. I think that, you know, for one, you know, you need to get away from the idea that this is fantasy football. This is not a game, you know, this is people's savings. They wanna put their kids through college. This is their retirement money. And so for one, it's absolutely crucial to, you know, get in front of people face-to-face and realize that you know that what you're doing, you know, a little bit better, a little bit worse return can really make a big difference in those nest eggs. And this is not play money. And so that adds value as well as just something, you know, my father told me, you know, when I first was first. Started working, he said that he or she who is in front of or has access to the clients, you know, in and of itself creates value. And you know, as something from which, you know, I, you know, found, I enjoy talking to people. I think that, you know, maybe, you know, it's kind of interesting and fun to see what kind of questions people are asking. I think that gives you a better ability to do your own job. 'cause you see what people are thinking out on the street as well as just, you know, finding ways to explain, describe, you know, simplify things for people who might not understand, you know, the more complex terms and just, you know, being able to describe what you do so that people aren't surprised. And so I've spent a lot of my time on the road through the years, whether it's meeting with clients or in some of the more recent years, doing some, you know, television pieces on things like CNBC and Bloomberg, which is something for which, you know, again, it seems to be a side part of the job. Although, you know, in of itself it can also be kind of fun. You know, I always viewed those as, you know, whether it's, you know, having a conversation like this, you know, when people ask those questions, being kind of on live television and not knowing what they're going to ask when they ask you know, I guess you make it a little bit more fun 'cause you think about it like, almost like being on a, a TV game show where okay, you know, they're gonna ask a question, you don't wanna look dumb and you need to have an answer pretty quick. So you either, either need to quickly. You know, dig through your brain for the answer. Or if nothing else, find a way to pivot to something else that you want to talk about. So that's always been kind of just a side fun part of the job.
LJR: Yeah, yeah. But back to that kind of relationship building piece, I mean, it's kind of funny when you mentioned that you yes, there were those people as we were leaving college that knew what they wanted to do. By the way, they didn't, they, they kind of were making that up. But that's another story. You came in knowing what you wanted to study because not really the subject matter, it was that person.
BM: Right.
LJR: The relationship that you'd built with that great teacher. I will say I don't think we had any hippie economics professors. At least I didn't encounter them. I would've enjoyed that major much more had I probably. But I think that's really telling that you didn't get into the field of economics because of the money. The game part.
BM: Right.
LJR: It was the people part. And I kind of like how your entree to that is now what you do on a daily basis. And it's, yes, it's about the money, but it is actually much more about what does the money allow someone to do in their lives? And you are probing for those questions that like, what's really important to somebody, their value system, and you know, what do you need to be pro protecting and supporting with your recommendations?
BM: Yeah, that, that's a great way of putting it, is that, you know, we think. You know, and you know, you know, equity, stock investing, you know, you don't necessarily think of the good old fashioned macro economic stuff as being, you know, the key mover for what we do. But it's something that you can't get away from. It's something we talk about every day. It's something that, you know, makes, if you read the newspapers and you see, okay, the Fed's raising interest rates, their cutting rates, inflation's going this direction, it's. You know, it makes all of that a little more interactive. It makes it more fun. And, you know, you're definitely right. I think I was one of those people for which, you know, I was, you know, really inspired by, you know, really special individuals along the way. And, you know, we didn't have the hippie professors at Dartmouth, but you know, we as well in the economics department, we did have the types of professors. I think that, that really were hands on that, that kind of continued that level of inspiration. You know, a great anecdote. I sometimes like to tell young people because, you know, we, when we tell people about Dartmouth, we say, you know, it's a small college. It's a college, not a university where, you know, they really focus on undergraduate teaching and the, you know, they're not just doing big research. They have a passion for that. And you know, what ended up being actually a couple of years ago was a great, great example of that was that, you know, one of the best economics professors that I had when I was at Dartmouth is a fellow named Professor Andrew Sandwick. And you know, when he, when we were, had him at Dartmouth, he was, he was new, he was one of the younger professors in the department there. He was always very hands-on everything from being available after class to, you know, I could say I, you know, you know, got together with him outside of class. You know, he came over to a fraternity party or something like that once or twice. But you know, he just had a passion for getting to know the students. And a couple years ago I was back up at school for some alumni council meetings, and I was just, you know, one more, I was actually at Lu's by myself, just having a quiet breakfast. It's one of the things I like to do when I go back, you know, sometimes it's, they say it's about the people, sometimes it's about the places too. And so I love to go back there, I love the places.
LJR: Those crullers.It’s all about the crullers, really
BM: And I'm, I'm having a breakfast by myself at Lou's, and I see Professor Sandwick at a table across the way, having breakfast with someone. I thought, okay, I, I'm gonna wait till I'm done. When I'm done. I kind of thought, I'm just gonna walk by his table. I don't wanna interrupt him. He didn't know anything. So I just wanna say, Hey, professor Sandwick, I just wanted to say you were a, a very inspirational teacher to me along the way, and then I'll just leave him alone to have his breakfast. And so I get up and start walking over there and I'm about five feet away. And he looks up and he sees me and he says “Burns!” And it just, I was, I literally, it's like, I, I was floored. I just like fell backwards and thought, are, are you kidding me? That this guy has had, you know, class after class after class, year after year, after year. And he's still recognizing students that he had along the way. When we, again, it's, it's one of the things, it's a nice selling point for Dartmouth. We tell people about the unique connection that some of the, and, and the accessibility that teachers have. That's just a firsthand example of the, you know, we're not just talking the talk, the, the college and this, the faculty and the teachers and the professors are really walking the walk. You know, it kind of blew my mind and it really kind of, it really made my day.
LJR: I'm sure you made his day by telling him how important he was in in your life, but it was also a testament to how good you look these days that he could remember you from 20 some years ago.
BM: I just still look young. I still look like a kid.
LJR: Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Well, and so you do have kids of your own, and although you have. New Englander at heart. She is probably been a Texan this whole time. So what is, what has non-work life been for you in Texas?
BM: You know, I have always been a big believer that, you know, there's, there's people who, you know, you know, live to work and some, some people they work to live. And I, you know, I do enjoy, you know, having interests, having passions outside of work. I've always been a big fan of, you know, experiences, going to live events. The adrenaline you get from really, primarily from, you know, I in person you're either traveling to or at home. You know, going to live sporting events, being in, you know, a crowd for those or, you know, or live music. I love concerts and I love seeing music played live. And so a lot of what I've done here in Dallas, I've been a Dallas Maverick season ticket holder for years and years. It's something for which. I think, you know, my kids picked that more than I did. I, you know, again, when I took one of my children to their first Mavericks game and I thought maybe they'd wanna leave at halftime and, you know, or get up and go eat hot dogs and nachos. And they just sat in the seats cheering the whole game. And that, you know, for me was, you know, better, you know, being able to share that bond was better than anything. So I've had those tickets for years. And then I just, you know, my wife and I have always loved going to see live music. I, we've, I've got pretty wide ranging taste and you know, I've probably, you know, I feel like I've seen more concerts through the years than just about anyone I know. So those are some of the things I, you know, just aside from just really focusing my time on, you know, maximizing whatever I can with the kids, you know, I'm about six months away from being a complete empty nester. And so it's a, you know, as it gets closer and closer, I realize that you just gotta savor every, every one of those minutes that you do get with them.
LJR: Totally. Totally. And then you have a different whole set of opportunities for yourself and time and a a different phase. So who knows what that's gonna bring for any of us. But anyway well, we all know now that we have a probably more of a hometown boy in Dallas than we ever could have known. So we'll hit you up for recommendations, at least for the best barbecue. But Burns, it's been great to talk to you.
BM: Thanks so much, Leslie.
LJR: That was Burns McKinney, who's currently senior portfolio manager at NFJ Investment Group, a global value equity manager in Dallas, where he's been for the last two decades. He is about to be an empty nester, so if you're interested in joining him for a Mavericks game, you might be in luck, but he'll probably be busy catching live music or traveling with his wife, Barb.
We're happy you're either catching up with our archives of over 185 interviews and bonus episodes on Roads Taken show.com or joining us each week of this season. Thank you so much for traveling along with us as we bring you new stories from New Voices and me, Leslie Jennings Rowley on Roads Taken.